| We hope you enjoy your visit to this forum. If you are reading this then it means you are currently browsing the forum as a guest, we don’t limit any of the content posted from guests however if you join, you will have the ability to join the discussions! We are always happy to see new faces at this forum and we would like to hear your opinion, so why not register now? It doesn’t take long and you can get posting right away. Click here to Register! If you are having difficulties validating your account please email us at admin@dbzf.co.uk If you're already a member please log in to your account: |
- Pages:
- 1
- 2
| Dragon Ball Super's Power Scaling | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 19 2017, 12:33 AM (4,454 Views) | |
| + ThePrinceOfSaiyans | Sep 19 2017, 12:33 AM Post #1 |
|
魔王子
![]()
|
I don't think it's any secret that this topic is a point of contention for those that actually care about this sorta thing. I'm sure even people who are often indifferent to this sorta thing find themselves criticizing this aspect of Super. To the folks that genuinely don't seem to care about this subject, I'll try to lay out why I find this topic important, at least to an extent. Specific numbers or multipliers aren't necessarily things I'm interested in. If they were provided in a guide book, that'd be nice, but it's not a major concern. The reason I'm interested in this subject is because power scaling has an impact on story and characters, believe it or not. For example, in the instance where Freeza survived the Genki Dama on Namek, if Kuririn suddenly powered up as he was about to be killed and landed the finishing blow on Freeza, that wouldn't make for good story telling, and it would undermine Goku's role in the finale. Now, I know that might be a bit of a hyperbolic example, given nothing that extremely out of place happens in Super, but I think it highlights the importance of power scaling in reference to the story and characters. Now, the reason Dragon Ball Super's power scaling is so contentious is mostly result of something akin to the example I provided, only less extreme. The not Goku's and Vegeta's of the show are often granted incredible power ups with little to no effort exhibited, often in extremely short time frames. The most obvious example is of course Freeza getting as strong as he did in 4 months. Now, ignore the time frame for now, let's focus on what Freeza could have possibly done for those 4 months to increase his power. The methods of training, I'd argue, are significantly more important that the amount of time put into them, and the original manga, and it's anime adaptations, showcase this quite nicely. Take for example Future Gohan. Future Gohan ended up training for 13 years by himself, and his power maybe exceed Super Saiyan Goku's on Namek. Now, Gohan trains with Goku and Piccolo for 3 years, and Gohan's base level is probably around as strong as his Future self's. Give him another year in the Room of Spirit and Time with his father, and he's capable of killing Super Perfect Cell, whereas his future self couldn't even beat Future No. 17, who's weaker than his present self. Sparring partners and intense conditions that push you are what make you stronger. I have hard time believing that Freeza, being as strong as he is, was able to push himself even with a sparring partner in Tagoma, given that Tagoma wouldn't push Freeza. If you notice, Goku and Vegeta didn't get a lot stronger in that 7 year period between the Cell Games and the Majin Boo saga, assuming the SEG multiplier for Super Saiyan 2 is to be believed. That's because they didn't have a way of pushing themselves. Vegeta had a gravity machine he maxed out during the Artificial Human arc, and Goku said he couldn't find anyone as strong as him in the Next World when he explained fusion. Freeza having a wealth of hidden potential doesn't mean anything if you don't have a way of bringing it out, and doing a few push and sit ups, and drinking plenty of juice isn't going to unlock that potential, otherwise Gohan wouldn't need some fancy ritual to unlock his latent ability. And as I alluded to, this isn't a problem exclusive to Freeza. Trunks gets bull s*** power ups in his arc. No. 17, Gohan, and Kame-sennin get bull s*** power ups in the build up the Tournament of power, and it just doesn't feel like anything is earned. Goku and Vegeta are pretty much the only ones that put in the work, and even then Vegeta's increase toward the end of the Trunks arc was kinda dumb, given that Vegeta said he and Goku were nearing their limit prior to training for the tournament between Beerus and Champa, but I digress. The point is, the scaling isn't believable, which is a problem for a series with a big focus on martial arts. The scaling has to be believable, or else the tension is lost, and immersion suffers as a result. There's also the problem with ambiguity and continuity, but I think that's where I'll leave that. It's hard to get invested when the series doesn't try to present believable scenarios. Edited by ThePrinceOfSaiyans, Jan 16 2018, 04:37 PM.
|
![]() Battle Power Guide 3DS FC: 2707-1669-7946 XBL/PSN: MaOujiBejita | |
![]() |
|
| + Ssj3vegito96 | Sep 19 2017, 01:38 AM Post #2 |
![]() ![]()
|
The root of the crazy power scale this show has is goku absorbing ssjg. Not that there's anything wrong with goku and vegeta being godly powerful but if they're going to be that strong then not many people, even from other universes, should come even close to them because not only does that take away from the significance of the god tier, it makes everything in Z seem like a joke. So the story suffers. And that makes me butt hurt The moment gohan went mystic and started fighting ssjb goku is when I stopped caring. Yeah it's unbelievable he's that strong but it was awesome and expected so idk why anyone should still be pissed about it honestly And now in the tournament goku and vegeta are being challenged in the tournament of power when they should be crushing everyone in their base forms except for the big dogs of course. This is just toei animation though so what do you expect? They have a history of ignoring the implications of their fight scenes |
IT'S CHEESE![]() Spoiler: click to toggle
| |
![]() |
|
| + Pyrus | Sep 19 2017, 01:55 AM Post #3 |
![]() ![]()
|
This is one of the problems people had with GT, except here it's multiplied ten-fold. People complained that "eghh, why are there all these people stronger than Majin Buu suddenly showing up?", and in Super, it's basically the same thing. Aside from the gods and angels, who obviously demand a superior position, you've got—according to Goku absorbing Super Saiyan God—a peaceful Saiyan race in Universe 6, a random assassin, a peaceful metal person, a not-so-different version of Freeza, a fat Boo stand-in, some dogs, a band of justice seekers, and loads more people in this Survival Tournament that are all supposedly strong enough to at least give Base Goku and Vegeta some trouble, making them stronger than Majin Boo by default (even though a much weaker version of Boo showed he was stronger than at least some of the competitors currently participating, which is another issue with the powerscaling). It's not just two or three people that are now suddenly stronger than the mightiest terror of the universe, it's a couple dozen, some of which were blatantly stated to never be in life-or-death battles or undergo much training at all. It's retarded, unless you accept that the God absorption has been retconned. |
|
Spoiler: click to toggle
| |
![]() |
|
| superperfectnerd | Sep 19 2017, 10:37 AM Post #4 |
![]()
|
I couldn't agree more, power advancement was always explained well for Dragon Ball and Z but Super just doesn't even bother trying after BOG. We had training with Roshi < exploring the world and fighting an army < training with Korin/climbing Korin's tower < real world training < King Piccolo wishes for youth < super holy water < training with Kami and Popo < Piccolo reborn < Gohan's hidden hybrid power < training between Piccolo and Gohan < training with King Kai under ten times gravity < kaioken < 100 times gravity training < zenkais < fusion with Nail < Freeza's forms < increased Kaioken capacity < ssj < sparring with a ssj and a fused Namekian < 300 times gravity training < androids bio enhanced from data gathered on the heroes < fusion with Kami < Cell biologically crafted from greatest fighters in the universe < human absorption < strongest android < 17 absorption < ROSAT training < assj < ussj < fpssj < 18 absorption < ssj2 < seven years to only just catch up < majin Vegeta < millennia old monster with untold power < ssj3 < fusion < Gohan's potential brought past it's limits < absorption < potara fusion The ROSAT is the only thing out of place, why didn't they use that before? In Super only an effort to explain Goku and Vegeta's gains are made...everyone else just...trains? Even with the two base theory/power retcon (which I have to cling to because otherwise it's just too mental) I have the likes of Krillin far stronger than Boo saga base Goku considering his place in this tournament, which is a little hard to swallow. I already know what the defence is "other characters have caught up and surpassed Goku's old benchmarks quicker than him before", true but they had something Goku didn't, sparring partners and a goal in mind, they knew what was possible and sparring stronger and stronger opponents has been proven time and time again to power up most effectively. So I can sort of buy Krillin and Roshi's strength if they've been training with 18 but what the f*** have Tenshinhan and 17 been doing to surpass their old strength? How did Freeza get so strong? |
![]() |
|
| Kayoss | Jan 16 2018, 03:58 PM Post #5 |
![]()
|
Power scaling in DBS is all screwed up. You have a transformation that is called "Super Saiyan GOD" but yet it is not so "Godly". |
![]() |
|
|
|
Jan 16 2018, 05:57 PM Post #6 |
|
4 get tmrw 2 rmbr ystrday x.x
![]()
|
Get a calculator out son, that's all I can say m8. |
![]() Only yourself can lead the route towards tomorrow... Frequent role player and power scale analysing... | |
![]() |
|
| Kblo247 | Jan 16 2018, 06:06 PM Post #7 |
![]()
|
When has Tien stated to have gotten stronger? He hasn’t. He has been bodied in every fight he has been in during this arc. When were his tactics mentioned? They haven’t been. What insight is providing on the sidelines? None. Heck the anime never even mentioned them wanting Tien outside of numbers working as they sent Shin off to find a tenth guy Roshi has been training for him to fwin gut in buff form and teach mafuba to Goku. We also see he knows of this forest and his suit that Goku called heavy to wear. Then we see him work on a weakness with Yamcha and Puar. Then he perfects his techniques on Yajirobe and Korin. And we have Goku and Gohan day he’s recruited for his knowledge, and him himself tellthe fighters he’s there to beat their trickery his stronger peers won’t focus on. There is Krillin. Surpassed his old limits in the forest months before this arc. We have it stated by his neighbors he and 18 train and spar outside regularly. Then we have it stated by Goku they have been training off panel, and Krillin backs the statement when he says Goku can use kaioken 20 blue and can’t make a spirit bomb while transformed which no one else knew. We also have all that equipment to train he owns. I mean it’s kinda obvious that he has been training a lot when Marron of all people starts making comments on strength, is able to follow the fights, teases Goku that her daddy won their match, and that she can be left behind to defend the forest too. Piccolo got into shape by training Gohan back up ironically as we are shown. He also keeps training off panel in prep for the tourney. He and Gohan just train more together and stick together. He has an idea of how strong Frost and U6 are up close as well as Beerus. Android 18 and Android 17, see Frieza. They were born or created that strong with no training. Well over a million times stronger than Goku initially and Vegeta too. So it stands to reason they can achieve greater than them in a short time. Plus 17 and 18 don’t tire. Hell you can add Buu to them as well and add in power varies with emotions. Gohan is the biggest a*** pull as he hasn’t trained in a decade mostly outside swinging a sword. He has been doing it on and off to get to maybe his z sword level but he finds his ultimate power and beyond in less than a day of regular time. Biggest saving grace is he appears weaker than 17 now as well as Frieza since Goku outright said if Frieza acted out it would need to be humor Vegeta to put him down Tien Roshi Krillin Piccolo 18 Gohan 17 Frieza Vegeta Goku I don’t get the bitching about Brianne or Cabba or Hit or Jiren or Kefla or so on compared to gt. In GT those guys were still part of the same universe Frieza and Buu went around owning. In super they are all part of separate universes and worlds each with their own rules, tech, biology, and experiences. You really have less of a right to question their strength than the others in GT. Edited by Kblo247, Jan 16 2018, 06:09 PM.
|
![]() |
|
| Saiyan36 | Jan 16 2018, 08:44 PM Post #8 |
![]()
|
Not quite Godly enough to manhandle Dyspo. True Freeza was pretty evenly matched with second base Godku (who supposed to have surpassed SSJG) during ROF. Dyspo experienced some problems with True Freeza in the latest episode (123) as well, Super Saiyan God wasn't bad against Dyspo either but still needed Blue to give him some meat for his money. Then i wonder: where was good old second base in episode 104? He couldn't have done worse than SSJG i suppose. Yet we only saw God and Blue. If you'd stack a real SSJG-multiplier on top of a being that has already absorbed or surpassed SSJG, you get a divine monster that makes the Grand Priests underpants go wet. Not someone who can't even give Dyspo or base Kefla a trip from stage. Edited by Saiyan36, Jan 16 2018, 10:19 PM.
|
![]() |
|
| + Pyrus | Jan 16 2018, 10:26 PM Post #9 |
![]() ![]()
|
Tenshinhan has been training pupils at his dojo with Chaozu, so I can see his strength increasing marginally from that, but nowhere on the same level as when he was training seriously in the mountains in Z. He got bested by a retired Roshi, so he couldn't have been leagues above his Boo arc self. I don't take that one writer's Twitter comment seriously either, the one admitting Yarin's (or whoever) magic made Roshi stronger. He probably folded under the pressure of the Tenshinhan fanboys. |
|
Spoiler: click to toggle
| |
![]() |
|
| Axl | Jan 16 2018, 11:00 PM Post #10 |
![]() ![]()
|
Bro, most characters in Dragon Ball Super, except for Goku, Vegeta, Arc Villains, Gods of Destruction and Angels, are pretty much just trash. Okay, so we got these trash characters like Krillin, Tien, 17, 18, Piccolo, Roshi and Gohan in this arc doing something 'awesome' and 'useful'. But, just think about it. After this arc is done will they ever be relevant again? f*** no, bruh. So then, why waste time explaining the power ups of these trash characters when they all are just gonna fade away into obscurity, like always, after this arc gets done? |
|
Axl Reviews:The Casual Version | |
![]() |
|
| + ThePrinceOfSaiyans | Jan 17 2018, 12:54 AM Post #11 |
|
魔王子
![]()
|
Because it's bad writing...? It's not simply what they can do now, it's what they could have done, No. 17 specifically. He sure would have been useful when Majin Boo was terrorizing the Earth. |
![]() Battle Power Guide 3DS FC: 2707-1669-7946 XBL/PSN: MaOujiBejita | |
![]() |
|
| Topographic Oceans | Jan 17 2018, 01:04 AM Post #12 |
![]() ![]()
|
Worst of all, Tenshinhan's pupils looked like completely ordinary fighters. I doubt they are stronger than Mr. Satan. You'd think people trained by a super-human warrior like Tenshinhan would be much, much better than that. They look like the bald guys who harassed Kuririn in the 21st Budokai preliminaries before getting their a*** beaten. Also, while that's off-topic, it's incredibly stupid from a storytelling standpoint to see Muten Roshi besting Tenshinhan in any way, shape or form, be it with magic or wathever. Tenshinhan was the one who basically retired Roshi in the 22nd Budokai and made him realize that he could finally pass the torch to the new generation of fighters. Edited by Topographic Oceans, Jan 17 2018, 01:05 AM.
|
![]() Spoiler: click to toggle
| |
![]() |
|
| Axl | Jan 17 2018, 04:02 AM Post #13 |
![]() ![]()
|
I don't believe in good or bad. I find those terms to be profoundly unhelpful in judging a work. They are essentially just code words for ' I liked it ' or ' I didn't like it '. And they tend to be very subjective terms. Now, don't get me wrong. I do have things that I like or dislike. But, if I was amused by something even if it was considered ' bad ' by some people or just had some ' bad ' aspects to it, so what? I don't really need an amazing story or incredible character developments or a consistent framework to be entertained. But, that's just me. So, let's just agree to disagree on this one. And, I understand why you don't like the writing or the inconsistency of Super.
Do what? The only thing #17 would do is get his a*** absorbed by buu, based on the facts of how Majin Buu arc was directed. |
|
Axl Reviews:The Casual Version | |
![]() |
|
| Kblo247 | Jan 17 2018, 04:07 AM Post #14 |
![]()
|
He realized Yamcha, Tien, and Chaiotzu weren’t better than him I guess. I mean his whole speech to Ganos is how he won’t limit himself and how watching Goku and Krillin made him realize he wasn’t retired and wasn’t going to stop trying to improve |
![]() |
|
| Kblo247 | Jan 17 2018, 04:20 AM Post #15 |
![]()
|
I think it will be relative and we will see some visit other universes actually and maybe play hero in those places as some filler arcs, they write themselves actually for some of these guys |
![]() |
|
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous) | |
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · Dragon Ball Super · Next Topic » |
- Pages:
- 1
- 2
| Track Topic · E-mail Topic |
4:52 PM Jul 13
|
Theme Designed by McKee91
Powered by ZetaBoards Premium · Privacy Policy






















4:52 PM Jul 13